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Watain

Watain

Oh what the heck, they deserve a thread by now, or?
discuss away...


I don't like the music, or actually I DO, i just can't stand the vocals as with 99% of all extreme metal bands. So i just stick with the handful of instrumentals, watch Opus Diaboli and skip the songs because it looks "pretty" and get depressed over wooden box sets with candles and amuletts and pretty prints that I don't actually want to buy. which makes me officially weird.

altho, this last interview and the mentioning of a "more acoustic, ballady thing" makes me hopeful that they sloooowwwwly develop into a direction where I one day can happily purchase wooden treasures without being an idiot.

Also, as unrelatable blackmetal ideologies normally are to me, they seem to be a little less caught in their own contradictions (at leats as long Erik doesn't talk about using the trident as a symbol of evil and then discuss how the old religions got destroyed by christianity, making clear that christianity is his opponent and how Loki is an "evil god." Uhm no. Loki is NOT an evil god, he got PORTTAIED as an evil god by christians... and the tridnet was used for a loong time and only half the times was a symbol of evil...but whatever.

Edited by: mrs v. viper - Jun-15-13 14:07:37

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Re: Watain

If he doesn't deny to use christian terminology it's no contradiction.

All those neopaganist movements/religions are very incoherent mixtures of various widespread romantizised supposedly "old" beliefs. They shouldn't be taken too serious. There is actually very few known about prechristian european cultures, too few to reconstruct them properly.

Watain do impressive pyro-shows with detailed stage outfits, but appart from that they're pretty hollow.

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Re: Watain

beautïful wrote:


If he doesn't deny to use christian terminology it's no contradiction.

hmm. haven't thought it that way tbh,... but I do think that basically cursing christianity and express "deep respect" towards the people that burn churches, which basically is an act of wanting to wipe christianity out, yet at the same time using symbols in a way christians always have is a bit ... anti-consistent behaviour I think, which to me is living in a contradiction. Which of course is very typical for as ypou said all that neo paganism lifestyles so perhaps I shouldnt't wonder.. however, saying Loki is an evil god is plainly incorrect. We don't know much about pr-christina cultures, thats true,  the oldest written exemples of the asgard/midgard legends, and they are already wruitten down by christians, show a much much much less defined good vs. evil approach to Loki. the reason he often gets recognized of being evil is mainly his creation of fenris and the midgard snake, which are destructive forces indeed, but are merely a result of his cunning behaviour, and not something he wants to do in the first place. In the older versions of the stories at least. Even later versionsn don't portrait him evil as lets say the christian's satan/lucifer. not even Marvel went that far if you get my meaning, so thats just plain wrong... tbh i often wonder whwre the heck people take that evil loki from...

I also think that they're not as hallow as others. at least they seem to be genuine in what they do in a way, and I like how they have this concept of detail and seem to have a reson for most things (no matter how illgical those reasons are sometime Oo), which I find a bit more intresting than "selfexpression just for the sake of it" (seriously anybody could do that and it wouldn't mean its quality results) or "that looks cool I wanna do that too" which is straight out unimaginative.

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Re: Watain

One of the bands i take seriously. I don't really like to discuss them. But the constant feeling of danger that surrounds them is unique these days. Only two other bands has made me feel like This. And that is Dissection and Malign. Both very related to Watain..

Just a fun thing, in the Watain chapter of the book Blod Eld Död they mentioned Dave Lepard.


TO THE DEATH!

And all that is holy, holy shall be...
Let the light bless and
let these words proclaim the blessing.
Let the seal be broken and let the light prevail

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Re: Watain

mrs v. viper wrote:


Oh what the heck, they deserve a thread by now, or?
discuss away...


I don't like the music, or actually I DO, i just can't stand the vocals as with 99% of all extreme metal bands. So i just stick with the handful of instrumentals, watch Opus Diaboli and skip the songs because it looks "pretty" and get depressed over wooden box sets with candles and amuletts and pretty prints that I don't actually want to buy. which makes me officially weird.

altho, this last interview and the mentioning of a "more acoustic, ballady thing" makes me hopeful that they sloooowwwwly develop into a direction where I one day can happily purchase wooden treasures without being an idiot.

Also, as unrelatable blackmetal ideologies normally are to me, they seem to be a little less caught in their own contradictions (at leats as long Erik doesn't talk about using the trident as a symbol of evil and then discuss how the old religions got destroyed by christianity, making clear that christianity is his opponent and how Loki is an "evil god." Uhm no. Loki is NOT an evil god, he got PORTTAIED as an evil god by christians... and the tridnet was used for a loong time and only half the times was a symbol of evil...but whatever.

Loki was more or less evil. He was a murderer of lust and jelousy. Just as Qayin more or less was.
Temple Of The Black Light focuses alot on finding strenght in Qayin and his "evil". So of course, Loki is evil. And by evil, I mean the Christian definition. And the trident represents death.

And all that is holy, holy shall be...
Let the light bless and
let these words proclaim the blessing.
Let the seal be broken and let the light prevail

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Re: Watain

GunsNCrüeSWE wrote:


Loki was more or less evil.

I guess by christian standards, he kinda is. BUT, so is Odin and all the other Edda people. I mean they are all jealous, mischievus at times etc. One shouldn't forget that Loki spins many of his coups on REQUEST of the other gods, because he is clever and finds way to trick the enemy. My point is that in the old religions the concept of good and evil is much less defines as it is in christianity. And we can be pretty sure of that because thats a tendency all polytheistic religions have. Monotheistic religions, and because of that our modern outlook is way more black and white, good vs evil. The Gods of the Edda aren't allmighty and one of a kind either, there's Niflheim etc that opposes them and challeneges them. All the gods are evil in some ways according to christians (which ofc makes sense, right?) So I gues my point is Loki might be evil, but he is not "The God of Evil."

Now about Qayin/Kain, I don't know so much about his origins. I mean the old Testament IS fucking old, and altho I guess that the brother murdering is a motive that appears before that particular version most people know aswell, but as I said I don't know much about that. I however do know that there are different interpretations aswell.. not all interpretations say that jealousy was his motive. Some believe he's actually the Son of Eve and the Snake/Satan, some just see him as the first fruit of evil brought into the world etc. I see a big difference there too Loki, because Qayin in his most evil versions does the will of his father (Satan) while Loki is always self-responsible, also in his most evil (christian) presentations he is the one that brings damnation upon thw world in form of Fenris, Jörmungandr and Hel, like Satan causes damnation too. the evil-made Loki is a cause. Qayin obviously acts out of free will too, but he isn't the direct cause.

Oh btw, HEL is obviously an pre-version of the word hell, and actually means nothing but "hidden" or "covered". nothing specifically positive or negative.
Another thing is that the earliest Monotheistic versions of the afterworld had nothing specific postive or negative associated with it aswell, it was only a shadowy place and the punishment for the sins was the simple fact you had to live under not paradise like circumstances.



I'm gonna end this rant now, but this kinda stuff just shows why I think most of those blackmetal folks stop making sense as soon as they open their mouth. They just refer to random symbolics all over the place and mix up different time periods. Now if you want to start your own belief system thats fine with me, but then it's maybe not so clever to refer to stuff being "historical"  or "this guy used to be XXX before the christians came" when it's so obvious that religion undergoes a change in the span of a few centuries. If you try to do something that is historically correct, stay in one fucking time period, seriously it's not that difficult. Or just leave out thar referring and do your own thing. This always surprises and disappoints me, because most of those people have spent a lot more time getting into all of this than me, and even I can often verbally kill those people despite knowing nothing, basically.

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Re: Watain

GunsNCrüeSWE wrote:


And the trident represents death.

sorry for double posting, but I overlooked this, and uhm.... nope.

The oldest versions of the trident are fishing tools. Like Spears. Then later it is associated with Poseidon or in the Latin versions Neptune. Both characters (well they are basically one thing) used it both to kill and stirr up waves aswell as for creating new creatures, i.e. creating new LIFE. Now Neptune/Poseidon isn't a death bringer per se. he does sometimes, but just as often he helps someone out or cares for the people in need. so no. I have no idea when and how Satan got ahold of that thing and transferred it to that death symbol...

Also indian god Shiva carries a trident. Nothing especially deadly about that one either... just because Watain says it does it doesn't meant they are correct. A symbol doesn't "mean something" just because somebody says so, at least not aslong they don't exclusively stay in their very own world, where they can happily defoine what things mean. But Watain doesn't do that, they refer for that to existent things way too often. (read rant above haha)

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Re: Watain

The TBL/MLO is really ignorant. They say they believe to find gnosis in assembling all the grim and evil elements of mythologies all over the world. Why do they try so hard to be villainous? I think it's all about chicks. current/tongue

Dave Lepard included Watain 'n Evil Erik in his thanks section of Rest in Sleaze.

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Re: Watain

mrs v. viper wrote:


GunsNCrüeSWE wrote:


And the trident represents death.

sorry for double posting, but I overlooked this, and uhm.... nope.

The oldest versions of the trident are fishing tools. Like Spears. Then later it is associated with Poseidon or in the Latin versions Neptune. Both characters (well they are basically one thing) used it both to kill and stirr up waves aswell as for creating new creatures, i.e. creating new LIFE. Now Neptune/Poseidon isn't a death bringer per se. he does sometimes, but just as often he helps someone out or cares for the people in need. so no. I have no idea when and how Satan got ahold of that thing and transferred it to that death symbol...

Also indian god Shiva carries a trident. Nothing especially deadly about that one either... just because Watain says it does it doesn't meant they are correct. A symbol doesn't "mean something" just because somebody says so, at least not aslong they don't exclusively stay in their very own world, where they can happily defoine what things mean. But Watain doesn't do that, they refer for that to existent things way too often. (read rant above haha)

Just take a look at Opus Diaboli. Watain explains it there.

And all that is holy, holy shall be...
Let the light bless and
let these words proclaim the blessing.
Let the seal be broken and let the light prevail

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Re: Watain

GunsNCrüeSWE wrote:


Just take a look at Opus Diaboli. Watain explains it there.

mrs v. viper wrote:


The oldest versions of the trident are fishing tools. Like Spears. Then later it is associated with Poseidon or in the Latin versions Neptune. Both characters (well they are basically one thing) used it both to kill and stirr up waves aswell as for creating new creatures, i.e. creating new LIFE.

... he says it represents a destructive poewer. which is incorrect at least when it comes to neptune/poseidon who also use it to CONSTRUCT. to create. it's a symbol of power. not a destructive or constructive/creative alone. thas a difference in my book. dunno about shiva so much tho. he does refer to poseidon tho and there it's plainly incorrect. he can repeat it as often as he likes, it will always just be simplified and not true,

The TBL/MLO is really ignorant. They say they believe to find gnosis in assembling all the grim and evil elements of mythologies all over the world.

thats just plain ridicioulous, as many symbols in the stretch of both history and lcation mean two opposite things... thats just the contraddictions I'm talking about all the time, it's just soo not logical. it's like arguing with christians about some of their less logical believes tho, talking to emptiness...

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Re: Watain

beautïful wrote:


The TBL/MLO is really ignorant. They say they believe to find gnosis in assembling all the grim and evil elements of mythologies all over the world. Why do they try so hard to be villainous? I think it's all about chicks. current/tongue

Dave Lepard included Watain 'n Evil Erik in his thanks section of Rest in Sleaze.

I'd say you are the ignorant. Temple of the black light are true to their teachings and of course they find gnosis through Destruction n' evil. Their goal is to be One with the eleven, and Crush the ten. So of course you have to deny the ways of the 10. Which basicly means evil is the way.

And all that is holy, holy shall be...
Let the light bless and
let these words proclaim the blessing.
Let the seal be broken and let the light prevail

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Re: Watain

mrs v. viper wrote:


GunsNCrüeSWE wrote:


Just take a look at Opus Diaboli. Watain explains it there.

mrs v. viper wrote:


The oldest versions of the trident are fishing tools. Like Spears. Then later it is associated with Poseidon or in the Latin versions Neptune. Both characters (well they are basically one thing) used it both to kill and stirr up waves aswell as for creating new creatures, i.e. creating new LIFE.

... he says it represents a destructive poewer. which is incorrect at least when it comes to neptune/poseidon who also use it to CONSTRUCT. to create. it's a symbol of power. not a destructive or constructive/creative alone. thas a difference in my book. dunno about shiva so much tho. he does refer to poseidon tho and there it's plainly incorrect. he can repeat it as often as he likes, it will always just be simplified and not true,

The TBL/MLO is really ignorant. They say they believe to find gnosis in assembling all the grim and evil elements of mythologies all over the world.

thats just plain ridicioulous, as many symbols in the stretch of both history and lcation mean two opposite things... thats just the contraddictions I'm talking about all the time, it's just soo not logical. it's like arguing with christians about some of their less logical believes tho, talking to emptiness...

Then, to him it does represent a destructive power. You can't ever say he is wrong saying things like that. And he Said that "the upper part" is the trident, Which means that the trident isn't all. Their symbol is the crux tridentis. And no, he does not refer to Poseidon as the One using it destructively, he simply says that it is his weapon.

And all that is holy, holy shall be...
Let the light bless and
let these words proclaim the blessing.
Let the seal be broken and let the light prevail

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Re: Watain

They're ignorant of the cultures of whose elements they assemble their mythology. They just take whatever fits their believes in some ill-interpreted way with little interest in cultural contexts. I call that ignorant.

If it's just like an artful collage one might say it's tasteless, but in my eyes it'd be okay. But those fools seem to really swallow their own bullshit. I can't see any other reasons exept wanting to shock even societies that are overfed with and dulled by entertainment or, as I previously suggested: chicks.

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Re: Watain

I had written a bit of a rant about other stuff, but somehow this board is a dick sooo... later maybe.
also, I really start to like this discussion...
btw, he doesn't mention Poseidon indeed, but he does refer to Neptune which is basically the same thing (which I also said earlier btw)
Also he does say "which by religious lore represents the destructive power of the divine" and the goes on and mentions Neptune as someone who wields it. that's  not true (the destructive weapon thing). fact. at least NOT in the example Neptune, don't know enough about Shiva and the other exemples he gives.

GunsNCrüeSWE wrote:


Then, to him it does represent a destructive power. You can't ever say he is wrong saying things like that.

... well, whta am I to say about that... I guess if a toddler insists that the sky is green I probably shouldn't contradict either. lets use a little allegory to get down to this shall we:

http://www.babybedding.com/fabric/black-and-white-stripe-fabric.jpg

the picture above  has black and white parts. it is black and white. it is black. it is white.
Now if I was to describe this picture I could say "It is black." I wouldn't be exactly lying. But I wouldn't do it justice either. "It is black" does not describe what you see.
if somebody choses to ignore the white parts yet insists on his way to simplify what the picture is he certainly can do that if it makes him happy. But he can't expect me to take him very serious tbh.
it's the same thing with the trident. "It is a destructive weapon" doesn't do it justice either.

don't get me wrong tho. I kinda do respect him for what he says. Mostly because I respect people that have enough imagination and creativity in them to build up their own world. i might not like the particular world and I think such people should be careful to build with stones that were used before, but I do think it is very poetic and beautiful in some ways.

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Re: Watain

Watain is not about facts. Shit, i can't ever explain. My relation to Watain is strange, i for example starve myself three days before i listen to them. Just in order to experiencen the music more.
So of course, it is a strange thing for me to discuss Watain in This way.
You know i feel things When i listen to them. And you can't justify it in words. If i say to you "I have felt it, you haven"t". You would react "what do you mean? We've Been listening to the same album the last Time i checked.". But Watain simply speaks to some people. And when you Then say things like "Mostly because I respect people that have enough imagination and creativity in them to build up their own world" I have no argument Except for "I have felt Watain".  And how solid does it sound?

Watain is no fucking show, Watain isn't a Piece of music, Watain isn't a band, Watain isn't facts.

Watain is the itch, the hunger and the salvation. 
I can't find words to describe it. Hereby i Leave This discussion Until i find a post of value.

EDIT: Don't say "how can you experience the music better When you claim Watain isn't music".

Edited by: GunsNCrüeSWE - Jun-18-13 01:21:17

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^I understand this better than you probably think. And if I talked about them building their own world I didn't meant it in an arrogant "oh the child has phantasies" kinda way, more like that I think they really create their own reality, which I think requires a whole lot of courage, ability to dream and ambition. And I respect and in some ways admire that.
From my own point of view they are just an intresting phenomen, because I do feel that they are different than many other bands that are considered the same genre. I guess I look at them a bit more objective because I have no personal connection to them, as you said, so recognize this stuff, but I do realize it doesn't have to matter to some people. I guess in some way I really don't get it, so I analyze the things I do get, because I find them intresting. And I just like to discuss symbols and their use and meaning, it's a bit of personal nerdery.

I know you won't believe me, but if theres just one person on this board that knows how it feels like to be overwhlemed by a piece of art and to be transformed by it then it would be me. the folks that don't get it like that still have the right to think about it tho.

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Re: Watain

beautïful wrote:

but appart from that they're pretty hollow.

mrs v. viper wrote:

The oldest versions of the trident are fishing tools. Like Spears. Then later it is associated with Poseidon or in the Latin versions Neptune. Both characters (well they are basically one thing) used it both to kill and stirr up waves aswell as for creating new creatures, i.e. creating new LIFE.

mrs v. viper wrote:

Also indian god Shiva carries a trident. Nothing especially deadly about that one either

beautïful wrote:

They're ignorant of the cultures of whose elements they assemble their mythology. They just take whatever fits their believes in some ill-interpreted way with little interest in cultural contexts. I call that ignorant.

I came to seek some knowledge, found the opposite.

First quote: Did you even read their lyrics and tried to understand what they are talking about?

Second quote: First - Fishing tool, what are you doing to the fish when you stick a trident through it? Are you masturbating it? Yes, it is a destructive symbol. And when it is associated with creating new life, remember the idea of death and rebirth, which is the idea of leaving the created world, to die and to kill it, so then to become reborn. Which is the principle of Shiva, destruction and creation. Death and rebirth.

Third quote: WRONG! It is specially deadly and destructive, Shiva is the god of destruction, which through it, then he creates.

Fourth quote: Did you read Liber Falxifer I and II or the Liber Azerate? Or their lyrics? Or the basis of it all, the Left Hand Path? Just as they seem to be misinterpreting, so are you misinterpreting what they are mentioning.

This are the most disturbing quotes I've found throughout this thread. Although I have seen enough ignorance to create this post to put some sense into your minds.
As you think they don't know what they are talking about when they talk about mysticism, so are you when misinterpreting them.

And no, I am not misinterpreting you completely, just the post in itself, which is filled with lack of knowledge. If you think the bands should trully know what they are talking about, so should you trully know the bands you are criticizing.

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Re: Watain

ndsshl999 wrote:


Second quote: First - Fishing tool, what are you doing to the fish when you stick a trident through it? Are you masturbating it?

hahah okay, very good point. haven't really thought about it that way tbh. I think my point was that that's the origion why it later got appointed to water gods, who then used it as some kind of.. whatever, magic stick? It obviously got appointed more supernatural attributes when it got appointed to a god, and I daresay before it got that devine connection it could hardly count as a symbol for anything. As a fishing tool it was hardly connected to anything "divine" or if it is probably only secondary. Might be just be me, but I think that fact that it gets constructive attributes as soon as it is connected with gods is quite significant. One could also go on from this and discuss how much destruction was in the idea of killing a fish for survival in ancient times, which probably is quite different to what modern times would think of it but that goes a little far right now, and whould need a complete defintion of how we understand "destrcution" first, which could just be "taking things apart" without any value or something we would consider to be negative.. and so on....

And when it is associated with creating new life, remember the idea of death and rebirth, which is the idea of leaving the created world, to die and to kill it, so then to become reborn. Which is the principle of Shiva, destruction and creation. Death and rebirth.

you see, my point basically was that the rebirth part seemed to be a little lost in that particular quote by him. I think it very possible that he himself is aware of that fact, but for those kids (read: uneducated majority of metal fans, and since they pretty much all make music themselves, musicians too..)that watch that stuff it will very much sound like destruction only. I totally understand the concept of killing something to recreate it in a new way and a divine context of it. that fact that the constructive part of the trident didn't get mentioned is what I think was one sided and it sounds very uninformed and "let's bend this to our way" sort of to me, because it takes very complex symbols and systems out of their context that isn't half as much living in a black and white world than Watain seems to do. That being said, I never doubted that the trident is a destrcutive weapon, I doubted, or better said, opposed that it's ONLY a destructive weapon. Which it isn't. You could of course take writings of mine that show me saying "it is not a destructive weapon", which is me ignoring the opposite site, which would bring us back to my (quite clever, catch the hints of irony) black and white allegory. I do think however, that whoever read what i wrote carefully should be aware of that I mean "not only" instead of "not".


Third quote: WRONG! It is specially deadly and destructive, Shiva is the god of destruction, which through it, then he creates.

I think I later said that I know nothing about shiva about 3 times, which should put this particular quote into perspective. I apologise however for just assuming, I tend to be a bit head over heels sometimes when I discusss things that interest me. Which is not an apologise, but a reason.


As you think they don't know what they are talking about when they talk about mysticism, so are you when misinterpreting them.

misinterpretation and disagreeing are two different things you know.. I think in their own little universe they do make pretty much sense, I just think that that little universe is pretty detached from everything else, which kind of makes it .. not work in my opinion. Also, I was advocating a opposite site a bit (obviously) and it's in the nature of advocating to take particular things a bit out of context to prove weaknesses, that in the whole of it maybe don't matter too much. So in a way that misinterpretating you think to spot is intended.

I'm not trying to prove anyone wrong btw, I just develop thoughts, but I think the concept of "disccussion for the sake of giving your mind something to work with" opposed to "discussion for the sake of selfprofilation" is pretty much lost to the 21st century..

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Re: Watain

I've read the lyrics of the first four Watain albums, heard them multiple times, as well as the material provided by Dissection. Kept it spinning for quite a while. I've also read all the interviews and stuff the MLO/TBL made public as well as into the Liber Falxifer. Eventually I came to the conclusion that it's all one-dimensional crap and I've wasted a lot of time and energy. Those miserable assholes take their esoteric pseudo-witchcraft bullshit idiology way to serious and therefore I can't respect them (and starving oneself for it neither). I know enough 'bout it to know that it's worth rejecting.

And I don't get what people expect of worshipping negative concepts. It's more than awareness and seems pretty dumb to me.

Edited by: beautïful - Jul-03-13 21:15:11

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Re: Watain

What you just Said made no sense.

And all that is holy, holy shall be...
Let the light bless and
let these words proclaim the blessing.
Let the seal be broken and let the light prevail

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